June 29, 2007

家の値段−「設計料」の適正金額は? vol.2

前のエントリーの続きです。

やっぱり、設計料の決め方ってどうも納得できない。

でしょうね、施主は。

何でそんなにかかるの、メーカーはサービスじゃん?

とか

紙と鉛筆があれば(今はCADだけど)できていい商売だね。

とか。

いろいろと思うでしょうね。


弁護士、医者、会計士、税理士・・・そして一級建築士

皆、国家資格をもったひと。


なんか、イメージもスタンスも違いますね。


「基本の設計監理料は工事費の○○%です」

という建築家がいるとします。

さらに

「工事費が上がった場合は、その増額分に対しての○○%も頂きます」

これは、建築家側の言い分、考え方。

施主はどんな気持ちだろう?

「えっ、予算は一番最初から言っているのに
 その予算内でできない場合ってあるの?」

これがあるんです。
とても頻繁に。

「 じゃあ、予算よりも安くできたときには
 設計料も安くしてくれるの?         」

これはありません。
残念ながらほとんどありません。

でもこれって、他のビジネスではあまりないことですよね。

では、建築家は、設計事務所は“ビジネス”をやっているのでしょうか?

これが、ここが、実は根本的な問題なのかもしれません。

“価値と価値の交換”  これがビジネス。 ・・・ですよね、きっと。

“設計報酬と設計技術”
“設計報酬と設計能力”
“設計報酬と設計デザイン力”
“設計報酬と設計経験”
“設計報酬と設計知識”
“設計報酬と交渉力”

なのかな?

では、

「うちは予算が厳しい。
 だけど、建築家と一緒に家づくりがしたい。
 だけど、工事費の10%を設計料に当てると
 残りの予算では、随分とグレードを我慢しなくてはならない。
 だったら、自分が払える金額、
 払ってもいいと思う金額の分だけ
 設計してくれないかな? 」

と、建築家に言ったとします。

おそらく、ほとんどの建築家は

「監理までやれないなら、受けられません!」
というでしょう。

・・・なんで????

と、思いますよね。

武士は食わねど、・・・・

って、ことでしょうか?

いや、それとも少し違う気もする。

また、
「自分がつくりたいものができないなら、受けられません」

ということもあるらしい。

・・・・?
「あなたに頼みたいと言っているのに、受けてくれないの?」

って、思いますよね。

設計受けるかどうかを決めるために
まずは施主にテストを受けてもらう。

なんていうことが、昔の建築家にはあったらしいとか。

設計料が安すぎる、という人々がいます。
設計料が高すぎる、という人々がいます。

価値と価値の交換。

設計事務所って、建築家って

やっぱりビジネスじゃないんですかね。

企業内設計者、設計屋さん、設計事務所、建築家、・・・

資格は皆、一級建築士。

だけど考え方が違う。立場が違う。報酬が違う。

一番手取りが多いのは、企業内設計者だったりするのかな。

では、何のために独立して“アトリエ事務所”なるものを立ち上げるのか。

「自分のつくりたいものを設計するため」   なのかな。

では、建築家は芸術家なのか。

これもまた違う。  でしょう、きっと。

建築家ってなんだ?


もう25年以上も業界にいるのに、改めて考える、今日この頃。

(たぶんまた続くでしょう。いつかは分からないけど)

Posted by asazuma at June 29, 2007 8:17 PM | TrackBack
Comments

価格の根拠って、突き詰めるとほとんど何もないという気がします。
価格の三要素(積算価格、取引価格、収益価格)のどれをとっても根拠は霧の中。むしろ先にイチマンエンとかヒャクマンエンとか数字が決まって中身が決まるということが多いのではないですか。イチキュッパで売っている物が何故イチキュッパなのかといえば、イチキュッパなら売れると思っているからであって、本当にイチキュッパ以上の価値を持っているかなんて誰にも確認できない。価値があると思う人は買い、そうでない人は去る。価格にはそんなパラドックスがあると思います。結局、設計料率も同じことでは。

ついでにですが、私は設計を続けるために設計料をお願いしています。設計料が欲しいから設計をしているわけではありません。お金だけが欲しいのであればまずもって設計なんて仕事は割に合いません。

さらにさらについでですが、何が建築家なのかは後世の歴史家がきめること。商品の名前ではありません。

悪筆乱文お許しください
(パソコンに悪筆ってあるのでしょうか・・・みてみたいけど)

Posted by: 県庁の星 at July 1, 2007 8:10 PM

県庁の星 様

コメントありがとうございます。

>イチキュッパで売っている物が
>何故イチキュッパなのかといえば

200円、2000円、・・・2000万円
以上するけど、思い切って値引きしました。

って、感じでしょうか?

もう、この手の値付けもちょっと、食傷気味です。

>何が建築家なのかは後世の歴史家がきめること

これもその通りかもしれません。
が、しかし、

今現在、設計をしている人々。
今現在、建築家と名乗る人々が
自らの立ち位置を明確にしないといけない
とも思います。

>商品の名前ではありません。

これはその通りだと常々思っております。
他の建築プロデュース会社は
どうだか知りませんが・・・。

頂いたコメントを読んで、
すぐにでも続きを書きたくなってきました・・・

Posted by: asazuma at July 2, 2007 9:12 AM

随分失礼な文章ですいませんでした。

意味や価値は、地形ようなものなのではないかと思っています。
建築家という山、工務店やハウスメーカーという山もあり、それぞれの裾野はズルズル広がって他の山につながっている。
「建築家という山はどれか」と言われれば、誰もがあれと指差すことができる。でも、「建築家という山はどこまでか」と問われると難しい。
ここまでが建築家の山といったとしても、そうでないという人もいて、樹海を彷徨うことになる。

Posted by: 県庁の星 at July 2, 2007 12:56 PM

県庁の星様

>樹海を彷徨う

ほ〜、なかなか上手い表現!

私はもはや、樹海を彷徨いながら
さらに洞穴に迷い込んでいるような状態かも?

さて、

設計事務所のホームページを拝見すると

構造・規模により最低金額を
提示しているのをよく見かけます。

それは、200万だったり、300万だったりします。

それを見た施主の方々はどう思うのでしょうか?

「うちも最低金額でやってほしいな〜」
と思うのかもしれません。

一人の事務所、ご夫婦の事務所、
5人の事務所、10人、20人、50人の事務所

掛かる経費が違うのは当たり前。
人件費の分の高くなる?

これも、一概にはそうとは言えない。

事務所規模が大きい分だけ
扱う件数は多いはずだから
一軒ずつじゃなく、年間の件数などで
カバーするのかな?

ちなみに事業用のマンションなどの
設計監理報酬は3%くらいなのかな?
(7%ということもあるにはあります。稀ですが)

住宅規模の場合は、工事金額が上がるのに比例して設計報酬も上がる。

でも、当然、マンションの方が工事費が高いのに料率は低い。

どこを、いくらを、境に料率が下がるのでしょうか?

こういうことって、建築業界に限ったことではないですよね。

Posted by: asazuma at July 2, 2007 7:43 PM

>それは、200万だったり、300万だったりします。

「そのぶんいいものつくります」と通常言っています。

そこに疑問をもつ方は間違いなく(残念ながら)私どものような事務所には来ていないと思います。でも、そういう意味で多くの潜在的需要を逃しているのかな?と思う半面、金銭的な損得と設計者の存在ってもともと関係ないんじゃないか、設計料の話をする前に夢を共有できなければいずれは上手く行かなくなるだろう予感があって、料金体系にメスを入れる気分というのはいつも萎えてしまいます。

たとえば、総額を一定としたときに設計料を見込んで建物を考えると一般的な事例よりも面積は少なくなりますが、それを上回るような快適性を実現する設計は可能です。しかしながら、設計料を払って、しかも普通より狭い家になんで済まなきゃイケナイノ?という方にどれだけ経験や感覚や事例を説明しても残念ながら無駄なのですね。私どもの表現能力の限界、課題だと考えるのですが、価値観の違いというのは凄まじいという実感を持っています。

設計料率なり金額の適正さや妥当性と、それに対峙する状況、というのは別に考えないとワケのわからん議論になると思うのですが。

Posted by: 県庁の星 at July 3, 2007 12:09 AM

>たとえば、総額を一定としたときに設計料を見込んで建物を考えると・・・

これ、これ。

ほとんどの施主予備軍は
「コミコミの総金額」で予算を考えているのではないでしょうか?

工事費(希望予算) + 設計監理料

「いいものがほしいなら、余計にお金を出してください」的に受け取る方もいるかもしれません。

>設計料率なり金額の適正さや妥当性と、それに対峙する状況、というのは別に考えないとワケのわからん議論になると思うのですが。

これは、私も含めた業界側の言い分かもしれません。

今や、どの業種においても
「顧客第一主義」という企業(謳い文句だけではなく実践している会社)が最終的には
生き残る時代のようです。

企業=経済活動?

やっぱり、設計って(特に住宅設計)は

“商売” ではないのかな?

あっ、建築プロデュースも・・・かな

Posted by: asazuma at July 3, 2007 9:14 AM

匿名でもいいとのことで。
早速、参戦します。

いっそのこと、
払えるだけ、払ってもいいと思うだけ
っていうのはどうでしょうか?

どっちにしても、住宅一軒の設計では
食っていけませんから。

そんなこと言いながらも
設計しているのは好きだから
一生続けますけど。

Posted by: at July 3, 2007 9:31 AM

設計は誰にでも出来る。

ということを前提に考えるようにしています。
建築家も「ただの人」ですから。

建築主がやれば良いの言うのが「基本」です。

ただ、実際は一から建築のあれこれを勉強したり検討する暇は無いので、
誰かに頼もうということになる。やってもらった分だけ払えばいいのですが、

それは、例えば私の場合、
(これが商売の基本と言って良いと考えていますが)

建築主の方が稼いでいるのと同じ人件費
「払う人本人のお給料+経費と同じ分」を頂けば良いと考えております。(日割り計算)

ただし、その「やってもらった分」がどの程度なのか分かりにくい、
というのが設計料の分かりにくさの、ひとつの問題点だと思います。

「情報の非対称性」と言うのでしょうか。
(Wikipediaに説明があります)

それを無理やりシステム化しようとするから、
工事費の何%だとか、規模に応じて(私はこれ)、などとなるのでしょう。

きちんと適正を見極めようと思えば、
建築主の方が設計屋さんの作業実態を完璧に把握しなければいけませんが、
それは、いわゆる顧客本位かどうかが問題なのでしょうか。

逆に、設計屋さんからいえば、
建築主の方が「どれくらいやって欲しい」と思っていらっしゃるか、
これを見誤ると、問題なのでしょうね。

ゆっくり話し合うしかないというのが、今のところの実感です。

Posted by: arime at July 3, 2007 11:37 AM

挑発にのって参戦いたします。(^^;
朝妻さんのようによく分かってられる方に対して「反」論なんてあまりないんですけれど。

>「工事費が上がった場合は、その増額分に対しての○○%も頂きます」

これはなかなか無いですね。いぇ、たいてい工事費は上がりますが、その分設計料を追加してもらうなんて無いです。
まぁ施主の要望から予算オーバーになることが多いのですが、予算を捻出してもらう分、設計料は据置きという場合がほとんど。
「じゃぁ、施主は最初少なめの予算を提示していた方が特か?」ということですが、そんな(設計者を欺くような)ことしててイイモノできませんわな。


> だったら、自分が払える金額、
> 払ってもいいと思う金額の分だけ
> 設計してくれないかな? 」

これはアリですね。でもあなたは一体私に何を望んでいるの?ってなります。
レシピが欲しいのか、献立だけでいいのか?それとも美味しいものが食べたいのか。
(ブランドだけで満足するのか)
献立考えるだけなら安くすみますけれど、美味しいかどうかは知らないよ。


まぁ、「設計料が安いから依頼する」という施主はいないでしょう。(そのあたり県庁の星様に同意)
誰に依頼しても同じモノができるのであれば、安いところにいくと思いますが、そうではないことは施主の方々もよくご存知です。
いや、知らない人、納得いかない人はこんなところに足を踏み入れてはいけません。

Posted by: ちはる at July 3, 2007 4:38 PM

arimeさん
コメントどうもです。

>建築主の方が稼いでいるのと同じ人件費
「払う人本人のお給料+経費と同じ分」を頂けば良いと考えております。(日割り計算)

これ!
私もいつも考えていることです。

でもそうすると・・・

やっぱり、高いと感じる方が多いんでしょうね。

>ゆっくり話し合うしかないというのが、今のところの実感です。

やっぱりそうなんですかね。

Posted by: asazuma at July 3, 2007 6:43 PM

ちはるさん
コメントどうもです。

>献立考えるだけなら安くすみますけれど、美味しいかどうかは知らないよ

なるほど、これは分かりやすい!

>まぁ、「設計料が安いから依頼する」という施主はいないでしょう。

それはそうなんですけど、


>知らない人、納得いかない人はこんなところに足を踏み入れてはいけません。

そうなんでしょうね、きっと・・・。

でも、私は一人でも多くの方に
建築家との家づくりの醍醐味、楽しみを
分かって頂きたいと願っているので、
その辺をどうにかできないものかと思って
というのも、
今回のエントリーにつながっているのかもしれません。

Posted by: asazuma at July 3, 2007 6:51 PM

提案です。

仕事、作業、役割は今のまま(設計は設計、工事は工事)で

契約形態は『設計施工一括請負』に限りなく近い

というやり方はどうでしょうか?

基準法改正に伴って
確認申請の変更が出来なくなった今、
申請した後に見積りを数社から取って
調整して、プラン修正して、工事契約。

というこれまでと同様の流れでは
家づくりが出来なくなったと感じています。

工事金額も完全に決まってからでないと
確認申請は出せない。

これって、本当に建築家と家づくりする
おもしろさが激減したと思っています。

「現場に入ってから決める」ということができない。

全てを着工前に決めなくてはならない。

ぜ〜ぜん、おもしろくない!

『現場は生き物だ!』なんて台詞は死語になるのか?

いっそのこと

設計監理“委託”契約

ではなく

設計監理および工事“請負”契約

のほうが、みんながしあわせなのかもしれないと
ここのところ感じているのですが如何でしょう?

うん?
そうなると私はどんな契約をするんだ?

Posted by: asazuma at July 3, 2007 7:06 PM

なんか面白うそうなので一言

>「自分がつくりたいものができないなら、受けられません」

自分のつくりたいものを好きなようにやってんなら、お金をもらうんじゃなくて、逆に払ってもいいんじゃないの?

そんな子供みたいなことが通る業界なんて
俺は知らない。
結局は建築家ってやっぱり芸術家になりたいんじゃないの?

「金のためにやってるんじゃない」っていうんなら、本当に金取らないでやってみればいいのに。
「全部終わってから、満足したらお金ください」ってことってないの?

匿名でもいいっていうから書いちゃいました。
悪気はないです。
自分も業界は違うけどデザイナーをしています。

Posted by: 匿名希望 at July 3, 2007 9:26 PM

>契約形態は『設計施工一括請負』に限りなく近い
>というやり方はどうでしょうか?

それに近いことやりはじめています。三社見積りやると調整設計をしなくちゃ行けないので、設計者としても大変だし施主も迷惑するし工務店もいい顔しない。なので、基本設計時に工務店選定をして金額調整しながら実施設計をしています。問題点は施主にとって価格の透明性(これって完全に幻想だ)が確保されないので、最悪、他の工務店なら出来るんじゃないかってツッコミが入る。結構怖々やっているのが正直なところですが、積極的に展開していこうと思っています。

>自分のつくりたいものを好きなようにやってんなら、お金をもらうんじゃなくて、逆に払ってもいいんじゃないの?

というのは考えたこともありますが、出来たものが社会の中で位置づけられないのなら完全に失敗です。建築は社会に対してもの申す行為です。だから必ず相手(施主)からお代を頂けるようにしなければならないのです。

そう。建築とは、好きなことやったあげくお代を頂くという非常にスリリングな行為です。落書きとはわけが違うのです。

いいだろぉ。

Posted by: 県庁の星 at July 3, 2007 10:35 PM

匿名希望さん
コメントありがとうございます。

そうですよね。

これってほとんどの方が一度は思い浮かぶことでしょうね。

でもね〜

やっぱり他の業界とはいろいろと違うところが多いんだと思います。

匿名希望さんがどんな分野のデザイナーかは
分かりませんが

そのデザインをもとに何かをつくり
それを販売、または何かの印刷物になったとします。
クライントは、もちろんそれを販売するのでしょう。
雑誌メディアなどは、一回の使いきりかもしれませんが
たとえば家電商品だとしたら、ヒットすればかけたコストはどこかの時点で採算が取れ、それ以上になれば儲けになる。

のでしょう。

建築設計(特に個人住宅)の場合は
完成後にそれを売り出すことはもちろんない。

設計もその時、その施主のためだけの
完全オリジナル。
汎用性ゼロ。

だから、建築家=デザイナー は
ちょっと違うと思っています。

時間をかけて設計し、それを基に工事をして完成、そしてそれを使うのはある特定のとても限られた人だけ。

「費用対効果の測定」なんて
はなからナンセンス。
する気にもならないし、考えもしない。

満足なんてその人事に違う。

で、
結局は設計監理報酬というのは

“人件費”ってことですかね。
それも、「食べていけるだけ」って感じの。

Posted by: asazuma at July 4, 2007 9:18 AM

県庁の星さん

>それに近いことやりはじめています。

>結構怖々やっているのが正直なところですが、
>積極的に展開していこうと思っています。

やっぱり、そうなりますよね。


>建築は社会に対してもの申す行為です。

そうそう、これもよく言われることですね。

でも、
「いいよ、別にもの申さなくても。」
と、クライアントが言っていても
設計者自らが“自分のために”やっているときってないでしょうか。

これは一歩間違うと“エゴ”と言われてしまいませんか?

>そう。建築とは、好きなことやったあげくお代を頂くという
>非常にスリリングな行為です。

これはまた大胆な発言。
しかし、こういわれてしまうと言い返せない。

でも、中には
「いいものつくってやるから、素人は黙ってな」的な
無言の圧力を放っている建築家もいるとかいないとか。

「やってやってる」
なんて気持ちが、頭の、胸のどこかにあるとしたら、
その建築家はきっといつかどこかで
潰されるでしょう。

あったりまえのことですが
「やらせていただいている」という
気持ちは絶えず絶えず持ち続けなくては
絶対にいけないと思います。

もちろん私も。


Posted by: asazuma at July 4, 2007 9:33 AM

はじめまして
都内で設計事務所をしております。

スタッフを8名でやってます。

私のところは基本を、工事費の13%でお願いしています。
また、工事費が増加した時にはその増額分の13%を頂くようにしています。

これを当然だと思ってやっています。

そして、工事費が予定よりも安くなることは、これまでの経験上ありません。

これを予算におさめる能力がないと思われるのは心外です。

ほとんど全てがクライアントからの要求ですから。

報酬をきちんと頂くのは経営者としての義務だと思っています。
それを怠ると事務所を維持できません。
事務所を維持できないと結果としてクライアントにご迷惑をかけると思います。

しかし、イチ設計者としては、お金なんてどうでもいいことです。

ここでコメントしている他の方もきっとそうでしょうが、結局は好きで設計をやっているわけですから。

お金のことなんか何にも考えずに、設計に没頭したい。
ひたすら模型作りをしていたい。

でも、あえて自分に経営者としての自覚を忘れぬように言い聞かせて設計を続けています。

突然お邪魔して失礼しました。


Posted by: チャーリー at July 4, 2007 9:22 PM

参戦などという意気込んだ姿勢ではありませんが、施主OBとしてひとつコメントします。

建築家・設計事務所に依頼するというのは、個人対個人、もしくは、一家族対一小組織の交渉なので、オートメーション化した取引はしにくく、おのずと取引の相対(あいたい)性が高くなります。取引パターンは多種多様になり、かつ取引情報はオープンにならず共有化されない。つまり設計料のインディケーションレートを定めにくい状況にあります。
同レベルの力量の設計者であることが確認できれば価格の低い方の設計者に依頼することになり市場価格が形成されるでしょうが、それも力量の確認や認定は難しい。
個々の完成品を見ても、それぞれにオリジナル性が高いので一物一価にもならないし、共通のモノサシも設定しにくい。
この状況では適正価格があったとしても、「これが適正だ」と誰も宣言できないでしょう。
釈迦に説法ではずかしいですが、まずはこんな解釈をしております。

さてちょっと話を変えて、
家づくりがビジネスであると考えるならば、施主は事業主意識を強く持たねばなりません。リターンを大きくしようとしたら怠けていてはなりません。企業だったら、取引である以上、相手と条件交渉するでしょう。価格交渉も施主の責任ということになります。
事業用マンションの建築主はまさにそれをやっているはずです。だからこそ3%というような料率に持っていけているのかもしれません。
そうはいっても総額が大きいプロジェクトと小さいプロジェクトでは、価格決定の自由度が全然違います。個人住宅などの規模では交渉しても値引きで勝ち取れる額はたかがしれていることです。施主にしてみれば一生に一回の事業で交渉スキルがないうえ、時間がかかるだけで効果が小さいとなれば、言い値を基準に考えるほかないというのが実態だと思います。
そして出せる額には限界があるので、言い値が高すぎると思った施主は離れるだけということです。

結局、モノやサービスの価格というものは「どれだけ出せるか」と「どれだけもらいたいか」のせめぎあいで決まるものです。

オリジナルな家作りをするのであれば、それにかかるコストもおのずとオリジナルになる。自然といえば自然です。その家が仮に適正な設計料で建てられたとしても、適正云々を決める尺度自体がオリジナルになって、ほかの家にその尺度をそのまま当てはめられるようなものではないのかもしれません。


さらに話は変わって、後から設計料が変わることについて。
実施設計時点で精度の高いチューニングができていれば、施工費が予算から大きく外れることはありますまい。その後、施主の心変わりやわがままによる仕様変更の責任は施主が負担するのは当然ですが、設計者の検討不足とか、施主が了承してもいない変更を勝手にして施工費が増えたのならば、その増額分の設計料を後から施主に負担させるのは納得しにくい。実施設計での見積額と実際の施工費総額の差額は誰の責任によって生じたかを明確にして負担を配分するルールが欲しい。
ビジネスであるならば、CEOたる施主が、プロジェクトの利益率を下げた依頼先への支払額を下げることがあってもいいはずです。
逆に、施主が想定していた以上の出来になった場合、ボーナスを払ってもいいわけですけど(笑)。


お金のやりとりがある以上、ビジネスでないわけはないのですが、最近の洗練されたビジネスとは違いますね。原始的なビジネスなのでしょう。

いや、いいじゃないですか原始的なビジネス。価格を決める過程から手作り感があって。
「家は買うものではなく作るもの」という流れで家づくりをするのならば、取引という行為も含めて「作る」という考え方をしてみても面白い。

まあ実際のところ、原始的なビジネスはどうしても手順が多くなるので、効率的ではありません。効率性が焦点になるとライバルに負けてしまうでしょう。だからこそ、公が納得する「適正価格」を提示できれば、という思いが浮かぶのでしょうね。
しかしできるだけ効率化する努力は必要ですが、効率を追求するあまり、システム化に向かい、それで大きなビジネスになっていくのであれば、それは最終的にハウスメーカーのビジネスになりそうです。
施主としまして、建築家・設計事務所との家づくりはシステム化されない部分に価値があるというか面白みがあると思っています。

話がとりとめもなくなってきてしまいました。
朝妻さん、たまにはプチオフでもしますか(笑)。

Posted by: garaika at July 5, 2007 12:21 AM

garaikaさん

いつもどうもです。

いつもながらの素晴らしいご意見
ありがとうございます。

garaikaさんのお話はいつでも
どこでも、一本筋が通った感じがあって
尊敬します。

>それは最終的にハウスメーカーのビジネスになりそうです。

そうなんです。
突き詰めていくとそうなりそうなんです。
でも、当然のことながら、そうなりたいわけはない。

だから、こんなにグダグダと考えているわけですが・・・


>朝妻さん、たまにはプチオフでもしますか(笑)。

ですね(笑)

Posted by: asazuma at July 5, 2007 8:56 AM

チャーリーさん
はじめまして、
コメントありがとうございます。

>報酬をきちんと頂くのは経営者としての義務だと思っています。

これは当然ですね。

>お金のことなんか何にも考えずに、設計に没頭したい。
ひたすら模型作りをしていたい。

これも、とてもよくよくわります。

>でも、あえて自分に経営者としての自覚を忘れぬように言い聞かせて設計を続けています。

そのジレンマとの戦いですね。

また、遊びに来てください。

Posted by: asazuma at July 5, 2007 9:27 AM

設計料のことはみなさんが書かれていることと似たような意見ですので置いといて、
匿名希望さんの書かれている

>自分のつくりたいものを好きなようにやってんなら、お金をもらうんじゃなくて、逆に払ってもいいんじゃないの?
>そんな子供みたいなことが通る業界なんて

コレについては設計する側としてもいろいろ考えさせられます。
でもね、程度の差はありますが、施主の言うことを何でも「はい、はい」と聞くスタンス・・・・これが耐震偽装につながっているんじゃないかと思うのです。
もちろん「偽装してくれ」とか「違法でもいい」なんて依頼主は言ってませんよ。でも何でも「はい、はい」と聞くなら、極端な話、偽装するか、依頼主と縁を切るかしか駒の進める場所がなくなるのですよ。

これは極端な話ですが、「違法でなければいいのか」ということも考えてみます。

先においしい料理の話をしましたが、「この食品添加物は規制されていないから大丈夫」とかいう話もある一方、「無農薬の野菜を使いたい」という料理人もいるわけです。
お客様の「安くて美味しいものを食べたい」という要望に応えるならべつに無農薬の野菜を使うことなどせず安い野菜を仕入れればいいことですが、そうじゃないだろうと思うのです。

建築の設計者のも同じだと思うのです。ホント、法律なんて最低限のことしか決まってませんし(おせっかいな部分も多々ありますが)、法的にはOKだけど「それはダメだろう」ということもよくあるのです。
自分の設計するものにポリシーを持っているからこそ
>「自分がつくりたいものができないなら、受けられません」
と言うことができるのだと思います。

もちろん、つくるものは依頼主によって変化します。同じ土地、同じコストで計画をしようとも依頼主が異れば同じ設計者でも建つモノは違ったものになります。「自分がつくりたいもの」というのは既に完成されていて倉庫から出荷されるのではないのです。
「自分がつくりたいものができないなら、受けられません」というのは「コレしかできません」という意味では決してない筈です。

・・・・長々としまってすみません。ついでだから自分のところにも同文をアップします。


Posted by: ちはる at July 5, 2007 8:55 PM

匿名希望です。

ちはるさんへ

いえ、皆様へ

なんか、ちはるさんの言っていること
正直、あんまり良くわかりません。

>でも何でも「はい、はい」と聞くなら、

なんてすることはないと思います。
そんなの業界関係なく
つくり手として尊敬できないと思います。

でも、何もそこまでやらなくても、って感じに思える設計の住宅がここ数年の雑誌にはよく出ています。

あれは、設計者のエゴじゃないと言い切れるのですか?

僕はあれは設計者のやりたいこととしか思えません。
「施主との対話の中から」とか
「施主の思いをカタチにすると」とか
雑誌では言っているようですが、あれはどうしても鵜呑みにできません。
「こんな感じのをつくってみたかったんです」
って言っちゃえばいいのに、それをなんかもっともらしいコメントつけてるのが目に余ります。

「じゃあ、見なきゃいいじゃん」って言われちゃうんでしょうね。
「あんたみたいな奴の家は設計しないよ」って言われちゃうんでしょうね。


Posted by: 匿名希望 at July 5, 2007 10:24 PM

ちはるさん
いつもコメントどうもです。

「耐震偽装」の問題は今回の私のとこでの議論とは
ちょっと別の問題と考えて頂けるとありがたいです。

もともとは「設計料の適正金額は?」ですから。

>「自分がつくりたいものができないなら、受けられません」というのは「コレしかできません」という意味では決してない筈です。

これは正にその通りですね。

「自分がつくりたいもの」っていう言い方が良くないのでしょうか。
(私がはじめに書いたような・・・)

そちらにも同じコメントを書かせていただきました。

Posted by: asazuma at July 6, 2007 7:49 AM

匿名希望さん

>あれは、設計者のエゴじゃないと言い切れるのですか?

これは“微妙”ですね。
そうとられても仕方がない建物も随分とありそうです。

>「じゃあ、見なきゃいいじゃん」って言われちゃうんでしょうね。
「あんたみたいな奴の家は設計しないよ」って言われちゃうんでしょうね。

そう言ってしまっては身も蓋もない・・・
建築家たちもそれほど排他的ではありませんよ。
もしそんな人がいたら、それこそ
「芸術家気取りか?」「何様だ?」
って言われちゃいますね。

でも中には「俺様だ!」って
言い返す人もいそうです。

Posted by: asazuma at July 6, 2007 7:58 AM

あっ、いいの見つけた!

家づくり成功の心得 番外−其ノ一
http://www.asazuma.com/archives/000077.html

Posted by: asazuma at July 6, 2007 8:36 AM

建築家の実作や考え方に対する理解や共感があってはじめて仕事が発注され、その過程で設計料が登場するのが原則だと思うのです。伝え聞くところによれば、有名な方はきちんとそのプロセスをとっているようです。今月の芸術新潮の堀部安嗣さんの話、伊礼さんの新建ハウジングのコラムが参考になるかもしれません。

だから、「設計者として何がしたいか」は嘘をつかず、出来る限り正確に正直に相手に伝えたいと思っています。私が「好きなことをやる」というのは、話の流れ的には、デタラメをするということではありません。多々ある条件をどうクリアするかも、好きでやることの一つです。

どういう仕事をするかは各設計者ごとに違うのでしょうから、施主の方はそれを確認することが大切ですし、最初は少しでも勉強が必要だと思います。(どういう勉強が?は非常に問題)一見、不自然不必要かつ過剰に思われることでも、筋のとおった誠実な行為なのかもしれませんし、全くその逆もあります。

ちょっと話がそれました。
たとえば「建築家」のことをあまり知らない方が、純粋なあこがれだけで「設計料」の問題に打ちあたった場合は、朝妻さんのお悩みはごもっともな感じを受けますが、建築家の仕事に共感してもらえるかということが改めて問題になるように思います。正攻法では解決になりませんか?

蛇足ですが、映画「県庁の星」の主人公と同姓同名なんです。しかも織田裕二の出身地に住んでるし・・・

Posted by: 県庁の星 at July 6, 2007 12:47 PM

匿名希望さん>
>あれは、設計者のエゴじゃないと言い切れるのですか?

エゴだと思いますよ。だってオレがイイって提案したんだもの。
施主との話し合いの中で決めたとしても、最終的に設計者が決めたのですから
「設計者のエゴ」だと言えると私は思います。

べつに奇抜なカタチの建物だけでなく、おとなしいスタイルでも設計者のエゴはあると思います。
だからこそ自分だけの満足に陥らないようにしなければならないと思います。


でも施主との話し合いをしていく中で生まれてくるカタチというものもあるのは事実。
そうでなければ基本計画なんて全て第1案で終わるわけですよ。
(書き直しが多くなれば設計料が上がるというわけでもないですし。)

施主の「もう一声!」(声なのか?)に応えることによって次の案が生まれてくるのです。
そのへんが朝妻さんの言われるところの「建築家との家づくりの醍醐味」なんだと思いますが、
「施主さえ納得させることができたら好きなことできる」という記事もどこかで見ました。
やっぱりエゴか。


朝妻さん>
で、「適性金額は?」ということなのですけれど、朝妻さんみたいな職業の方が一般的になって、設計入札を行うと下がっていくと思いますよ。
工務店に抱えられた設計者の時代から、住宅プロデューサーに抱えられた設計者の時代にシフトしつつあるように感じる今日この頃。


Posted by: ちはる at July 6, 2007 4:46 PM

県庁の星さん

まず、何でこのお名前なのかの疑問が解けてスッキリしました。
ありがとうございました。

>建築家の実作や考え方に対する理解や共感があってはじめて仕事が発注され、その過程で設計料が登場するのが原則だと思うのです。

そうですね。

そして、話し合いで決まる設計料が通常より低くかったとしても
「この人の家がつくりた〜い」と思えば
簡単に受けてしまう。

場合も多いです。 よね?

>だから、「設計者として何がしたいか」は嘘をつかず、出来る限り正確に正直に相手に伝えたいと思っています。

これって、す〜んごく大切だと日々実感しています。
そして、ほとんどの施主はそれを理解してくれます。
「ウチの建築家が言うんだから間違えないだろう。信じよう!」

って感じになればBESTですかね。

これが、
「施主を納得させる力、説得する力も建築家の大切な要素だ!」
といって憚らない方たちもまだまだたくさんいるようです。

わかるけど、少し度が過ぎる人もたまに目にします。

>好きなことをやる

>好きでやる

日本語って本当におもしろいですね。
全然、受ける印象が違いますね。

「好きでやってますから」
って私も無意識によく使っているようです。

>建築家の仕事に共感してもらえるかということが改めて問題になるように思います。正攻法では解決になりませんか?

この
「建築家の仕事」っていうのがとても曖昧なんでしょうね。

未だに、設計者が“監督”すると思っている方が沢山いますし、また逆に、図面をかくだけと思っている方も沢山います。
それと、「匠」と思っている人も・・・。

とにかく十分に対話を重ねる、ってことに尽きるのですかね。

追伸
お忙しい中、なんどもコメントありがとうございます。 ペコリ(絵文字がかけません)

Posted by: asazuma at July 6, 2007 6:34 PM

ちはるさん

どうもです。

>エゴだと思いますよ。だってオレがイイって提案したんだもの。

おっと、これは“素直”なのか“好戦的”なのか?

>だからこそ自分だけの満足に陥らないようにしなければならないと思います。

その通りですね。

>施主の「もう一声!」(声なのか?)に応えることによって次の案が生まれてくるのです。

これこれ、これがいいんですよね。
「お前ならもっと出来るだろう!俺を唸らせてみろ」
なんていわれたひにゃ〜、涙もんですよね。

その結果
「うん、さすが!!」
といければ、もうそれで十分。
って感じですかね。

>工務店に抱えられた設計者の時代から、住宅プロデューサーに抱えられた設計者の時代にシフトしつつあるように感じる

なんてことはないですよ。

私はほとんどの場合が、各建築家のいつもの報酬で契約してもらってます。
規模が大きかったり、事業性のあるものは別ですけど。

でも、実はそれを感じてもいます。

他の建築プロデュース会社では
登録制のところがほとんどのようですし
その会社やフランチャイズの主催するイベントに駆り出されているようです。

「入り口は別にどこでもいいんだよ。
こっちが上手く利用すれば」
といっている設計者もいるようですが
私は、なんかちょっと違うように思っています。

仕事を取るために
「建築家との家づくり」を看板にしているようにしか思えない、と感じています。

どんどん本題からずれているような・・・

Posted by: asazuma at July 6, 2007 6:55 PM

はじめまして、興味ある話題ですのでコメントさせていただきます。

まずはじめに私の立ち位置を明らかにしますが、素人(業界と関係なし)で、いわゆるアトリエ系事務所に設計を依頼して家を建てた施主OBです。

設計料金についての私の感想をまず述べますが、よくある建物代の10%前後の金額自体は妥当、または安めではないかと思いました。このような料率方式は(設計屋にとって)よくないのではないかとは思いますが。

金額が妥当と思った理由ですが、簡単に述べさせていただきます。
まず、建築家、という言葉から連想される芸術性等を一切排除して考えます。

設計事務所の仕事=施主のための設計図面作成+現場監理業務

として考えると

設計料=図面代+監理代

となります。
まず図面代についてですが、施主の意向を反映しつつ、土地の持つポテンシャルを最大限に引き出すために試行錯誤を行いながら膨大な枚数の図面を作成すると思います。図面の量が膨大な量になる理由のひとつに、施主の要求を満たすために規格品等を排除することに起因する詳細図面等が必要になることなどがあげられると思います。
設計には、この(住宅メーカー等と比較して)膨大な図面の作成の手間賃が最低限かかると思いました。

次に監理業務ですが、第三者機関による現場の検査からそれなりのコストが予想できます。
第三者機関の検査は、限られた回数だけ行われで、さらに最低限決められたチェック項目に対しての検査を行います。そのわりには第三者機関のチェックは高いのでは、という印象が持たれて、敬遠される方もあると思います。
対して、設計事務所の監理業務は、第三者機関によるチェックと同じ項目は最低限おこなわれ、さらに設計意図(すなわち施主の意図)に沿った施工であるかに注意を払いつつ監理する必要があります。施主の意向はいわゆる規格品にはおさまらないことがあると思います。そのため、設計意図が施工に反映されているかのチェックは手間のかかるものだと思われます。この結果、第三者機関によるチェックの何倍もの労力がかかっていると考えます。

いささか抽象的かもしれませんが、以上の理由から、良く見られる料率方式の設計料は妥当、または(芸術性をもしも認めるのならば)安いのではないかと思ったわけです。

設計料が妥当ではない、すなわち多くの場合高いのでは、と思われてしまうのは、ハウスメーカーに対して設計料が高いからなのではないかと思います。実際、メーカーは効率化のプロなので、設計にかかるコストは最低(悪い意味ではない)になるように工夫していると思います。施工に関してもそうですが。(メーカーを否定しているのではなく、結果として、スペックとして現れる部分は高品質、安全になるように工夫されていると思います)
その上で、実績により、芸術性等に支払われる対価がプラスされるのではないでしょうか。

個人的な感想ですが、料率で10%程度の設計料でやっている設計事務所は、芸術性等の対価は含まれず、業務として妥当な金額分だと思います。

また、arime さんのおっしゃる「施主のもらってる金額と同程度」ということには共感できます。もっとも、もう少し自信をもっていいんじゃないかとは思いますが。

初めての書き込みで長文お許しください。

Posted by: kimii at July 6, 2007 11:43 PM

kimiiさん

コメントありがとうございます。
朝妻です。

とても整理されたきちんとしたご意見
ありがとうございます。

なるほど

仕事、あるいは業務の対価としては
料率 10%は妥当ということでしょうか。

私のこれまでの施主たちは皆さん
はじめは感じなくとも、家づくりが進むにつれ

「私たちの家づくりのために、
こんなにも必死に取り組んでくれるなんて・・・
設計料って、安すぎるよね」
とよく言ってくださいます。

「もっとお支払いしたいけど、もう予算が・・・」
ってのも事実です。

私がここで考えているのは

「安いか、高いか」 ということではないつもりです。

「適正な金額はいくらなんだろう?」

「施主が納得する金額はどのくらいなんだろう?」

というつもりです。

kimiiさん
今後ともよろしくです。

Posted by: asazuma at July 7, 2007 8:53 AM

いろんなご意見があって一筋縄で行かないんだなということが、あらためて分かりました。

ところで、適正価格が分かりにくいのは工事費も同じだと思うのですが(建築研究上の難問でもある)、

「ここならでは」ということで、プロデュース料(?)の適正価格についてもお話しを聞いてみたいような気がしています。

Posted by: arime at July 10, 2007 10:04 AM

arimeさん

どうもです。

>いろんなご意見があって一筋縄で行かないんだなということが、あらためて分かりました。

当然ですね。
きっと絶対という答えがないのでしょうから。

>ところで、適正価格が分かりにくいのは工事費も同じだと思うのですが(建築研究上の難問でもある)、

今ちょうどその問題を、お施主様から突きつけられております。
本当にこの分かりにくさ、説明の難しさに
自分の能力のなさを痛感しているところです。


>「ここならでは」ということで、プロデュース料(?)の適正価格についてもお話しを聞いてみたいような気がしています。

ホラ来たよ!って感じすね。

これも大問題です。

各会社でやり方が違うのでしょう。

まあ、私の場合は
「25年の業界経験と13年のプロデュース暦で身についた技術と人脈のお値段」

ということなのでしょうが
これはまた一段と分かりにくいですね。

ちなみに私は当初の予定工事費(希望工事費)の5%とお願いしております。

が、実際にはお話し合いで決定しています。

どうも一番高いらしいです。

Posted by: asazuma at July 10, 2007 2:28 PM

>「25年の業界経験と13年のプロデュース暦で身についた技術と人脈のお値段」

なるほど、人工じゃないんですね。

僕自身としては、

『対価について「理解する」ということ』

自体理解していない可能性があるな、
と反省した次第であります。

ただ商取引は相互の平等を前提にしたいものだ、
という、儚い願いのようなものがありますね。

ハッピーのために。

Posted by: arime at July 11, 2007 12:03 PM

arimeさん

>なるほど、人工じゃないんですね。

そうなんです。
私の場合、プロジェクトによっては
誰よりも多くクライアントと会うこともあります。

それを人工計算しちゃうと
設計者よりも高くなっちゃう。

私に限らずだと思いますが
多くの仕事が“時間”への対価なのではないでしょうか。

設計然り、工事然り、その他の物販、
ネットや本、・・・

どんなことでも時間さえあれば自分で出来る。
でもそれをもっと上手に、早く、安くやってくれる。

それへの対価。

ってことではないでしょうか。

でも、私の提言する

“何々なら、一律いくら!”

ってのに賛同の意見はないですね。
解かりやすいと思うんだけどなぁ

Posted by: asazuma at July 12, 2007 8:18 AM

「解かりやすい」と言うのはそう思いますし、
印象としては、支払う側の利にかなっているように思えるのですが、

僕自身としては、

「最終的に」それがいい事なのかどうかということが、
今ひとつはっきりつかめず、判断しにくいというところです。

Posted by: arime at July 19, 2007 1:23 PM

arimeさん

>「最終的に」それがいい事なのかどうかということが、
今ひとつはっきりつかめず、判断しにくいというところです。

そうですね。

しかも、建築の場合は引渡しが終わったらそれでおしまい。
って訳には行きませんし、「最終的」がいつなのかも定かじゃない。

「お互いが納得すれば」ってことですかね。

Posted by: asazuma at July 19, 2007 2:44 PM

>しかも、建築の場合は引渡しが終わったらそれでおしまい。
>って訳には行きませんし、「最終的」がいつなのかも定かじゃない。

そんでもって「常連さん」「リピーター」というわけでもなく・・・・

このあたりが値段つけの難しいところ

Posted by: ちはる at July 20, 2007 10:56 AM

ちはるさん

>そんでもって「常連さん」「リピーター」というわけでもなく・・・・

そうですね。
特に個人の場合は、少ないですね。

私ももう何年もご無沙汰している方が大勢います。
便りがないのはなんとやら、だといいのですが

>このあたりが値段つけの難しいところ

ですね。

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love to} {know|learn|find out} where you got
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named}. {Thanks|Many thanks|Thank you|Cheers|Appreciate it|Kudos}!
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I {always|constantly|every time} spent my half an hour to
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{I'm|I am} not sure where {you are|you're} getting your
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{Hi|Hello}, i think that i saw you visited my {blog|weblog|website|web site|site} {so|thus} i came to _return the favor_.
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